I have an atheist ex-mormon friend that I have been debating/conversing with for several years now. If I published all I we have spoken, well, it would make for a very large blog!
I recently received what I believe to be an honest question from him and I thought both the question and the answere were interesting enough to blog so here you go.
I recently received what I believe to be an honest question from him and I thought both the question and the answere were interesting enough to blog so here you go.
The question:
My question is about what mainstream Christians think about Heaven. As a Mormon for over 40 years, we were continually told what we would be doing in the highest heaven if we made the grade. I think Catholics sometimes refer to 7 heavens and since the NT talks about a man who saw the third heaven, Christians must believe in 3 as do Mormons. I think the Muslims believe in a Paradise. Christians believe that the thieves on the cross made it to Paradise (Heaven?) even before Jesus did, since he was in the tomb on this earth for three days, or was it two days since he died on Friday and arose on Sunday? Before I was Mormon, I had assumed that when someone goes to Heaven, he and the other billions of believers would sit at the throne of Jesus, while harps were played, worshiping him for eternity. According to your faith what do mainstream Christians believe they will be doing throughout eternity and with whom? And will God to all this process in the Bible, again, on some other planet? Or will He limit his creation to this planet? And if this is the only story, then what will He being doing throughout eternity? And if he has done this in other places, was this the only world where the inhabitants were so wicked that they needed a Savior to atone for their sins?
The answer:
Why do you care what someone thinks about a place you don't believe exists?
Paul mentions higher levels of heaven. Some people think the three heavens are: The atmosphere, space, and the spiritual heaven.
My take, based on some of Bill Tiller's books
Paul mentions higher levels of heaven. Some people think the three heavens are: The atmosphere, space, and the spiritual heaven.
My take, based on some of Bill Tiller's books
is that heaven is a 4 dimensional conjugate space of the physical universe. This is based on experiments he does that test the influence of the mind on matter. The two worlds are linked and Tiller sees that the connection is made clear (a door opens) when faith is exercised - he sees these as particles that appear when one meditates, affirms or otherwise prays for things to change (such as the pH of water). This same "tunneling" into heaven is used when electrons jump quantum states etc.
Tiller doesn't call this quantum space heaven, but I think it makes perfect sense if it was.
God told Peter that whatever he loosed or bound on earth would be loosed or bound in heaven and vice-versa. So from these two sources I can see that (spiritual) heaven and earth are connected and the method of effect to connect them is faith.
In ShinJinJuitsu they postulate 9 dimensional spiritual levels and M theory (revised string theory) postulates 11.
I don't subscribe to the multi-verse idea, I think it is a bogus attempt to uphold the impossible probabilities of evolutionary theory, but I do think there is a hierarchy of dimensional spaces. This is how I explain the Mandella effect - which effects minor changes in reality but not memory. I think our memories are held in a higher dimension than is history/time travel, which Satan has not yet gained control of - nor do I think he ever will.
I am hardly a "mainstream Christian" but I see Heaven as a higher dimensional state where motion and time are not needed. All things are instantly connected and thus movement is not needed and thus no time. I believe it mirrors all time compressed into a single eternity. This is how I resolve the conundrum of God being changeless yet changing his mind - He is a higher dimensional crystal in eternity and as time flows, different aspects of his structure are revealed. Thus He does not need to move or change, time moves through him and just reveals different aspects as situations arise.
There are the 7 spirits of God which could be where the 7 heavens idea came from. Or it could be from the 7 chakras we have in our spiritual bodies. Since we are made in God's image, I suspect the two are mirrors of each other.
Tiller doesn't call this quantum space heaven, but I think it makes perfect sense if it was.
God told Peter that whatever he loosed or bound on earth would be loosed or bound in heaven and vice-versa. So from these two sources I can see that (spiritual) heaven and earth are connected and the method of effect to connect them is faith.
In ShinJinJuitsu they postulate 9 dimensional spiritual levels and M theory (revised string theory) postulates 11.
I don't subscribe to the multi-verse idea, I think it is a bogus attempt to uphold the impossible probabilities of evolutionary theory, but I do think there is a hierarchy of dimensional spaces. This is how I explain the Mandella effect - which effects minor changes in reality but not memory. I think our memories are held in a higher dimension than is history/time travel, which Satan has not yet gained control of - nor do I think he ever will.
I am hardly a "mainstream Christian" but I see Heaven as a higher dimensional state where motion and time are not needed. All things are instantly connected and thus movement is not needed and thus no time. I believe it mirrors all time compressed into a single eternity. This is how I resolve the conundrum of God being changeless yet changing his mind - He is a higher dimensional crystal in eternity and as time flows, different aspects of his structure are revealed. Thus He does not need to move or change, time moves through him and just reveals different aspects as situations arise.
There are the 7 spirits of God which could be where the 7 heavens idea came from. Or it could be from the 7 chakras we have in our spiritual bodies. Since we are made in God's image, I suspect the two are mirrors of each other.
The bible seems to hold Paradise as the equivalent for heaven that Sheol is for Hell. It is a holding place till the day of judgement when final outcomes will be openly declared and souls will then progress to their final destination.
I have never believed in harps in heaven. These are symbolic of tonal harmony that will exist in the final state. I see heaven could be the new Jerusalem where each of us is a brick in the structure. We never move or change but just exist in the presence of YHWH in a perfect chorus of praise and worship that will be "nirvana" itself. On the other hand, I can't imagine eternity without growth so maybe God just assigns us to new parts of some huge ever-growing universe (maybe the same as we have now) that we will continually learn and grow in. But I can't imagine growth without time so the brick model has prevailed in my mind.
Based on the prophecy of II Baruch, I believe that when creation matures and is reconciled to God, evil and good will be very apparent and clear. Separating sheep from goats will be the most natural thing possible and God won't have to lift a finger for all to see clearly who belongs where. Hell could be God's "left" hand, where the goats go. Is it torment or is it the natural state that lower vibrational energies naturally occupy? I think it could be like one of the "cities of refuge" in the Bible where all the man-slaughterers go to find safety yet they all have to live with each other. Toss all evil spirits into a single space and leave them be and I think you get torture a-naturalle. God doesn't have to be vindictive or light a match. The uncontrolled passions of all those spirits will burn just like hot logs in a fireplace. The fireplace keeps the rest of the spirits insulated from the heat yet emanates that "warm fuzzy" feeling to know they were accepted by God as the orderly spirits useful to Him while the others were chaotic and unstable and had no use. Eventually, maybe the evil spirits burn themselves out, or maybe not. I don't see God as vindictively torturing spirits, I see him as isolating the chaos to protect the rest of heaven from the chaos.
This is of course ALL conjecture on my part, but I thought I would share it with you since you asked.
I have never believed in harps in heaven. These are symbolic of tonal harmony that will exist in the final state. I see heaven could be the new Jerusalem where each of us is a brick in the structure. We never move or change but just exist in the presence of YHWH in a perfect chorus of praise and worship that will be "nirvana" itself. On the other hand, I can't imagine eternity without growth so maybe God just assigns us to new parts of some huge ever-growing universe (maybe the same as we have now) that we will continually learn and grow in. But I can't imagine growth without time so the brick model has prevailed in my mind.
Based on the prophecy of II Baruch, I believe that when creation matures and is reconciled to God, evil and good will be very apparent and clear. Separating sheep from goats will be the most natural thing possible and God won't have to lift a finger for all to see clearly who belongs where. Hell could be God's "left" hand, where the goats go. Is it torment or is it the natural state that lower vibrational energies naturally occupy? I think it could be like one of the "cities of refuge" in the Bible where all the man-slaughterers go to find safety yet they all have to live with each other. Toss all evil spirits into a single space and leave them be and I think you get torture a-naturalle. God doesn't have to be vindictive or light a match. The uncontrolled passions of all those spirits will burn just like hot logs in a fireplace. The fireplace keeps the rest of the spirits insulated from the heat yet emanates that "warm fuzzy" feeling to know they were accepted by God as the orderly spirits useful to Him while the others were chaotic and unstable and had no use. Eventually, maybe the evil spirits burn themselves out, or maybe not. I don't see God as vindictively torturing spirits, I see him as isolating the chaos to protect the rest of heaven from the chaos.
This is of course ALL conjecture on my part, but I thought I would share it with you since you asked.
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